FF - BOK Masters' Newsletter August 1993 - No 36

BOK Masters’ Newsletter August 1993 – No 36 – The Faulty Flipper

Training Times

This section has now been re-written three times, because it gets out of date as I get slower in producing the Flipper. So, as at 4 August, training times are as follows. Next Week, we have Monday and Tuesday at 8:00pm, and on Wednesday we return to ‘normal..

Friday mornings.

Gary Thewlis had been running a Friday morning early swim at Salendine Nook. For all those who were considering going, he tells me the pool is closed for the summer, and the morning swims have been abandoned. Whether or not they will return will no doubt be up to Gary. I will keep you posted.

Pain in The Neck

I am sure that I read somewhere recently that in order to enforce the avoidance of diving accidents, at all future ASA recognised swimming meets each swimmer will have to have obtained the ASA’s certificate in competency in diving. If not, the coach of any team will be asked to sign something to say that each of his or her swimmers is competent to make the dive. The article suggested that unless such confirmation was forthcoming, the swimmers might be required to start the race from in the water.

This humiliation is to be avoided.

For any meet (NE Counties? Nationals?) we should know whether and how the organisers are to implement the ruling.

Are any steps being taken to provide us with the opportunity to take the certificate (not that I want to do so)?

Is Jim OK and happy to sign any certificate required, and if not is Martin Mosey prepared to sign such a certificate?

Do any swimmers in the squad feel that they need specific training in dives and safety? If so, who, and how is it to be provided. May I suggest very strongly that any swimmer who feels any lack of confidence about diving should speak out loud and clear (even if in private) to ensure that the situation is remedied.

European Championships

BOK swimmer Debbie Armitage swam a splendid second leg in the ladies’ 4x200m freestyle relay. The team took a bronze in a new British Record. This was the first ever medal success in this particular event for a GB team, and Debbie is much to be congratulated. She maintained the team’s position in her leg, and even improved it slightly. I do not know the time but it cannot have been far from her PB. Martin Mosey even got a mention on the commentary as Debbie’s coach.

Karoly Guttler won the 100m Breastroke on the first day of the swimming competition. Now out of the shadow of Norbert Rosza (who has gone off to Australia and applied to be naturalised there), Karoly smashed the previous record by .34s to be the first under 1.01s ever. Not content with that, swim in the heats, he posted the second fastest ever swim in the final, leaving Nick Gillingham trailing in his wake in silver medal position.

Other good swims on the first swimming day were Paul Palmer who complained loudly having finished fourth in the men’s 200m Free race. He set a new British Record in doing so, but obviously has uppity ambitions.

Worthy of mention are the synchronised swimmers. Kerry Shacklock twice crept into bronze medal position, in the pairs and individual competions to improve substantially on our record in this event. My daughter Merry was far more impressed with the synchronised swimmers than she has been with the ‘serious’ swimming. What was it they used to say to Jim in the navy – ‘Shake a leg’?

Swimming Wednesday 4 August

I do not yet have the full results, but here is the major part as far as I could get it.

Bob Morgan our diver now based at Ponds Forge got a spectacular silver medal in the men’s 10m platform event. He took the lead on the penultimate round only to lose it on the last dive after a good dive to the Russsian Sautin. The eventual margin was the equivalent of less than half an inch after a fifteen hundred meter race.

In the Ladies 200m breaststroke Marie Hardiman got a bronze in her second English record in this event, having broken the old one in the morning. In doing so, on this her first appearance representing her country she also knocked .7s off her own PB

The third medal for GB for the day came when Karen Pickering picked it up in the Ladies 200m freestyle (won by K van Almsyk again in 1m 57.97s)

Tomas Darnyi took the 400m IM in a race which was possibly closer than he expected. His previous unchallenged dominance of this event may be coming to an end.

The mens 4x200m Free style race was won by the Russians. The Swedish team marred a great performance by a faulty takeover. The Olympic Champion Holmertz seemed to fail to plant his hand on the wall, but by that time his follower had already committed and gone. But for the DQ the Swedish team would taken a hard earned second place.

Bondage in Black

Arena have come back against Speedo in the speedy swimsuit competition. The German ladies team at the European Championships have been sporting the new suit. It has several interesting characteristics. First, it has to be in black, because in any other colour it would be, shall we say, too revealing. Unlike the Speedo suit, it is only made for the ladies, but in any event there is not much evidence of men taking up the Speedo version (volunteers anyone?)

Next, it is extra specially tight, leaving not a breath of air next to the skin. This might make it admirable for the bondage freaks among us (I am sure there must be something odd about those who like wearing extra tight paddles + flippers + brain squeezing goggles + swimming cap)

Last it can only be put on over the head, fastening underneath the cr.. er between the legs. I am sure that the interesting sight of such a suit being put on or taken off will be denied to us poor chaps, but if any of the ladies wish to describe the contortions involved, please let us know.

The suit is not yet publicly available; it is expected to come out in late autumn at a price of just under eighty pounds (ERM allowing)

Oh, and I almost forgot, it is supposed to make you swim faster.

Poor Norbert

Going back to Norbert again, news has come in that he was recently disqualified in a local meet in Australia. His English not being as good as his swimming, he failed to understand that the meet was being organised with the next race starting ‘over the head’ of the previous one, and he climbed out too quickly. How are the mighty fallen.

We should take note, because this style of race may be the only satisfactory way of managing a very busy meet (such as the Nationals) Whilst it stops the judges falling asleep, keeping them very busy, it also does make a substantial difference (I am told) to the time taken to run a many heated event (300+ in the fifty free last year at Ponds forge)

NB I now understand that he climbed out, and was given the opportunity to climb back in again, but refused and was only then disqualified.

Mondays

In case you hadn’t noticed, the ‘base’ start time for Monday night sessions is now 8:30pm, not 8:45pm. I know Jim got upset with people not turning up, but it seems clear that many of us were not aware that this had changed.

If you will not be able to make the changed time, it might be sensible and polite to let Jim know.

Coaching

As everyone knows, the first and pre-eminent requirement for a coach is the ability to enjoy his own voice. He must maintain that certainty that others are equally enthralled and enraptured, listening with bated breath for the next pearl to be cast before the mere swine of the lower lanes, despite whatever anyone watching would consider ample and objective evidence to the contrary. Yes the coach’s true task is to talk to himself loudly and continuously, completely oblivious to the fact that no-one is listening.

Well, that is how it used to be. Now sadly, and somewhat frighteningly, Jim has got philosophy. He stands there on the side, distant and clearly thinking hard (or is that just steam from the showers). At the end of a set, instead of our usual 3 minute bo**ocking for absolutely nothing at all, Jim immediately gives out our next set.

Hardly has the sweat disappeared from the brow, the gasp turned to pant, before we are off with some new mountain to climb.

May I just, on behalf of all us down trodden swimmers say once and for all ‘We need a rest’ If that means we have to listen to more of Jim’s moans, and even perhaps the occasional joke, then I, for one, am prepared to make that great sacrifice.

New swimmers.

We have several new swimmers with us, and I hope they will not be offended by my giving them a mention.

First we have Anthea. Anthea is 22 and over here from Germany, working for a local company for a few months. She is rapidly becoming adjusted to Jim’s style of training, and is young enough, and should be fast enough to climb toward the second lane before long.

Botty, who himself seems to be just visiting again for his summer hols, has been overheard gleefully and closely explaining the meaning of some of our more fruity English expressions (‘What does Jim mean when he calls John a Great Big W’). Quite how he has managed this I am not sure, but what I am awaiting is his own explanation of the term ‘Botty’ (with appropriate gestures or without)

Another swimmer is Rob Schofield (forgive me if I have the name wrong) Rob is another younger swimmer, but this time one with plenty of oomph. After being out of training for some time, he has slotted back into a routine very quickly and regularly leads off in the higher lanes. when it comes to the crunch, it will be a very close thing between him, Simon Andy and David in the 120+ relay team. Unusually for a good swimmer he appears not to have any gross personality defects; his single myopism being an unwilliingness to swim clockwise in a lane (is this ‘not turning the other cheek?)

Also back with us is Harry (‘the Wheel’) Barrow. Harry was one of the original BOK Masters swimmers. If you go to the pub ever on a Tuesday, you will often hear Jim reminisce He left in a spot of dudgeon shortly after I started, but has returned triumphant and resplendent from the sad depths of the length swimmers. Harry will be our oldest swimmer (by some distance) and will be far away from being the slowest.

Until this issue of the Flipper, I think he was unaware of the nickname he acquired after he left. It is a reference shall we say to his well known determination and single mindedness. He puts his head down, and woe betide anyone who assumes he will unnecessarily give way.

Harry is a well known triathlete and also a marathon swimmer. I am sure he has a very good chance of getting us a medal in the 1500m at the Nationals, as long as he doesn’t go dizzy with all the turns.

We have two new swimmers who have not quite decided whether they are swimming for Bradford or BOK, but since I do not know their names, I can’t say much more.

I am sure we have lost one or two swimmers along the way, but they are always much harder to notice by their absence. One exception is Alison Bees. Alison has presumably gone off back to Birmingham now that her course has finished. I do not know if we will see her again.

Trish Mellor definitely denies that her absence is permanent. I will be back, she says

Swimmers watch

You might by now have realised that I am a sucker for anything small and dinky, bright and shiny, with lots of electronics and buttons. Yes, my son has once again knicked my trendy electronic pulse-thingy watch, and I am on the prowl for a new one.

Casio, the favourite watch makers for the chronometrically challenged, have brought out a delightful new beast – a swimmer’s watch!

The watch retails at over £60.00 (but should be available elsewhere cheaper – if you see it significantly less than 60.00 please let me know) is certainly not streamlined. It is the rather bulky sports type associated with motor sports – it looks like a little rubber tyre with yellow knobs on secured to the wrist by an imposingly thick black strap.

Though thoroughly electronic, the main clock face is analogue (its has hands, you remember a big one for the minutes and a little one for the hours, or was that ….. never mind). It has a fair selection of impressive digital displays as well.

The specific facilities for swimmers have been gathered by a very brief examination of the manual accompanying the watch in the shop. This is a best guess, and some inaccuracy is guaranteed. First it has the ability to store your own PBs. For each one it store’s the stroke, distance and time. There are no sophistications such as distinctions between long and short course or either for yards / metres. You can store up to 20 such records, and check through them and update them as necessary.

More interestingly it stores times for sets. You can set a repeat alarm to go off every so many seconds and then for the last five seconds it will beep and blink and flash mercilessly at you telling you that you have to get going. This seems to be as well done as I have seen it on a watch. Others start bleeping on the time, not before, and the visual indication on this watch consists of five small holes which go black in sequence; you should be always able to see it, unless your goggles have filled with water.

On the other hand resetting it to start another of Jim’s sessions in the time available, and while treading water (or with one hand), and without anything small and sharp to prod it, doesn’t sound immensely practical. One can well imagine Jim saying five hundreds on 90s, setting it rapidly (and surreptitiously fully maintaining the nonchalance usually associated with the accomplished swimmer) only to curse as, worn out by the apparently random combination of smiles grimaces and groans from Noreen, Louise and Wendy, he says ‘OK, 1m 45s, GO’ There would be a rapid deterioration in ones popularity if one were to beep inappropriately.

Just as an aside, I always love 11:00 in the Magistrates Court. The bench is just winding themselves up solemnly to send some poor unfortunate to suffer the advanced tea and sympathy of the probation service when ‘beep beep beep beep’. Off goes someone’s watch. All the solicitors try to look unconcerned as their hands move to stop the chime. It is very similar to what used to happen at school when someone let off a silent fart (that word failed to raise any excitement either in my thesaurus, which deigned never to have heard of it, nor from the spell checker which treated it with equal disdain). This time there is the added piquancy that no-one can be quite sure it isn’t them causing the social crisis.

Back to the watch ….

There is another facility to store times, which I didn’t quite catch (the young lady at the shop was by now gently drumming her highly polished very long and very sharp finger nails on the glass) Whatever it was, For each one you use you lose one of the memories for the records (see above)

It is easy (and right) to laugh at such things, but in the past I have found such mechanical aids quite useful. First, when you catch them on the rope, and the strap breaks, it may be useful; to have to duck down under the water and miss out the occasional 100 free. More seriously, when I have swum marathon races, by setting the thing to beep at the time I expected to ‘cycle’ each hundred on, I was able to gauge how fast I was going and properly pace myself, by listening for the beep every 100 metres. How the other swimmers got on with this beeping all the time, I do not know, and the results might be slightly confusing if everyone tried to do it. Anyway, it worked for me.

So, if by late summer (after my birthday) you see me sporting something that looks like a very pregnant overgrown Colorado beetle on my wrist, you will know two things. My wife reads the Flipper, and that she can take even the subtlest of hints.

Wendy, the Truth

Truth has a strange quality: when you come across it, It seems to shine out like a torch on a Duracell advert. Well another, relatively tiny, but not unimportant, piece of the great puzzle of life fell into place recently.

Wendy, as you know is one of our more glorious and stylish backstrokers. Anyone who is not a backstroker will share my own acute puzzlement at how anyone can actually get to like back stroke enough to become a specialist. I know that some are born to it by virtue of the their physiology (being able to scratch their knees without bending), and others by virtue of a peculiar perversity of mind characterised by a determination to maintain cheerfulness at all times and wishing to be always ready to whistle.

Wendy suffers neither of these defects. So how did all this come about? Once every two months or so, we are asked to climb out of the pool to practice racing dives. Here is the answer. Wendy is unable to climb out over the side. By describing herself as a specialist back stroker, she therefore feels excused from climbing out.

The lengths some people will go to!

Calendar

August

Make sure you are registered with the ASA before mid August. If you are not, there is a chance you will be excluded from the competition by the ASA. If you do not know if you are registered, you aren’t. Ask Noreen for a form, and get it sent in.

28 Closing date for entries for North East counties.

Sat 28 August Liverpool – First open water 24 hour relay challenge – swim round in circles in the Albert Dock – 6 per relay team continuous one hour swims (398m circuits) This is yet another form of torture for the innocent. If your mind is of the nature to be pleased by this, please keep it to yourself. Go in silence, return in triumph

September

9 – 12 European Championships at Sindelfingen near Stuttgart Germany. If you are thinking about entering this event, you will have to obtain ‘authority’ from the ASA.

18/19 North East Counties at Scarborough. Do not panic, the forms are on their way.

October

15, 16, 17 National Championships at Ponds Forge. Here we go again. This time a few more medals please. I have heard rumours that this year we will be visited by the great and almighty Adrian Moorehouse. Help!

November

Hull – date to be confirmed.

December

Milton Keynes – date to be confirmed

1994

January

16 Closing date for Sunderland.

February

19 Sunderland. This is the first meet of the year, and the best chance to find out how much of the Xmas pud is gone.

April

29, 30 May 1st

Midland District Masters at Leamington Spa. I can obtain details for anyone interested. All distances up to 400m including also an open section.

May

14/15 Yorkshire ASA Championships at Scarborough

(The calendar is being re-born patience please)

Internet talk

The following discussions are taken, entirely without permission from discussions within the USENET discussion group rec sports swimming. If I thought the authors might mind I would not republish them, but I don’t so I will. I try to acknowledge the authors names, but anyone who has seen these groups will see that identifying who said what is not always easy.

Caroline Lambert writes:

>I … read (an) article (which) stated that it was harder for swimmers to lose weight because the water temperature made the body more disposed to retain fat cells. This seems to make sense if you look at the body types of world class swimmers vs. world class runners. I’m not saying the swimmers are … fat, but the runners seem to have a lot lower body fat content. Opinions?

One reply:

I doubt that many competitive swimmers have more than 3 or 4% body fat. [ed - this chap obviously has not seen our squad]

Doc Counsilman in his book mentioned a class of swimmers that were so lean that they had to maintain a certain forward speed to avoid sinking to the pool bottom.

I’m inclined to believe that any difference between swimming and running concerning weight loss can be best explained by the relative difference in strength of upper body muscles and lower body muscles. Even overweight, out-of-shape people have fairly strong lower body muscles, primarily because they still have walk and carry their weight. This strength serves them well when starting a running program and helps them persist and progress.

But out-of-shape people rarely have strong upper bodies and unlike running swimming demands a lot from the upper body. 65% to 90% of the forward motion of swimming comes from the pull, depending on the stroke and skill of the swimmer. You simply can’t progress in swimming without increasing upper body strength. For people starting a swimming program this is quite a hurdle and can be compounded by a lack of skill or coaching. Only the determined beginner will progress to a strength and stamina level necessary to burn many calories.

Another reply:

There are so many factors in this debate that it really comes down to a person’s characteristics.

- how efficient are your biomechanics in each sport. I swim very efficiently, but do not run very efficiently. Less efficient you are, the more energy you burn

- what do you do after you swim/run. I always feel like I will perish any moment from hunger after a good swimming workout and tend to eat LOTS afterwards. Running, on the other hand tends to depress my appetite till the next morning. Since your metabolism remains high for 2-4 hours after exercise, it makes a difference when you eat

- Both swimming and running can cause calories to be burnt just keeping you comfortable with your climate. This all depends on your natural body fat level. If you’re really lean, swimming will proabably burn more calories.

- how often do you do it. The more often you do something, the more efficient those muscles become at doing it. I spend more time in my running shoes than in the pool, so my body works harder in the pool.

Brendan R. Leitch

=================

Paul Big Ears Menon of the Royal Melbourne Institute of Technology

Just another angle to consider: running is a weight-bearing sport and swimming is not. Therefore extra fat on a runner penalizes the runner much more than extra fat on a swimmer.

A little data from a runner who took up swimming last year:

I could barely swim 1 lap last year. Now I get bored after 75. I _was_ skeletal above the waist – a typical rabbit (and still am compared to a typical swimmer). The first thing I noticed was the “firming” of my upper body, and eating more(!) as I am still running.

I can lose 3 Kg as a result of intensive runs (1 – 1.5 hrs, heart rate continuously around 170+), a lot more over marathons.

The most I have lost as a result of swims is ~ 1 Kg.

This isn’t fat, it’s fluid. I’ve long lost any excess flab, but as a comparison, I burn a lot more calories while running than swimming. I concur that even a 40 min gallop (1 1/4 Kg fluid loss) seems to be more effective than the hardest swim session I’ve done. I’m no Kieren Perkins in the pool, but when I do swim hard, it is hard, as I nudge my lactating point (legs & arms like lead and a “swimming” head.

I don’t think that one form of activity is “better” than another. I’d say that once a runner’s core temperature rises past a certain point, fluid loss (sweat) will always cause more weight loss than a swimming session. Swimmers are more effectively cooled by their environment, thus their core temp won’t rise that far (unless they’re in equatorial waters or wearing wet suits). Note that the quads are the largest(?) muscles in the body, and the runner exercises them more. Once they’re hot, they’re hot.

With respect to exertion, a runner (while running) can hold a much higher heart rate than a swimmer (while swimming) for a longer period of time. I think the order is swimming, running then cycling (a recent cycling jnl had this data). Cycling permits higher heart rates due to the efficiency of the exercise & the ability to concentrate most effort onto a very small group of muscles (I guess concentrating most of the blood/oyxgen into one area of the body is better). Swimming is probably lowest (in Max Heart Rate) due to the upper body being exercised too – ie, it isn’t every day you walk on your hands or do push ups, etc (it’s unusual). There’s also the very controlled breathing requirements (which can be subconscious during running and cycling). In essence, all but a very few can break through the warning signals sent to you when you’re overdoing it while swimming.

Swimming (when done properly) exercises the arms, legs, chest & shoulders (& even the abdomen). It is a more all round exerciser than the other two. Which is also probably why there’s the lower (aerobic) maximum heart rate. Oxygenated blood needs to go in just about every direction, rather than the dominant legs while cycling and running. So lactating occurs earlier due to the massive oxygen demand from all corners, not unlike XC skiing. If you really want a good weight loser, try that! There’s more demand from the legs and breathing is more natural (if gasping can be called breathing

Even though cycling permits a higher heart rate in general, I’ve observed that this doesn’t equate to a higher weight (fluid) loss. Probably due to running’s inefficiencies (jarring, balancing, fighting gravity), and (just to be contrary) being a natural progression from walking, I (for one) seem to be capable of greater fluid loss through this than any other form of exercise. People can be “sedentary” swimmers more easily than they can be sedentary runners. This is the gravity (weight) bit again which turns into the advantage of bouyancy while in the pool. Am I the only one who’s peeved that a walrus/whale has the potential to outswim me? This is also why there can be really heavy and good cyclists. But how many have seen a “heavy” 10K or marathon runner?

So yes, it’s possible to see a heavy-set (& good) swimmer or cyclist – not so a runner. I haven’t seen one.

This is from a reasonable runner & cyclist and a novice (and improving) swimmer. I don’t think my opinion will change even when I have developed my upper body to the stage of thrashing Perkins in the 1500 (around about 1995 if my improvement stays linear

Oh, this isn’t a sledge at swimming, I love to hate it twice a day! But there’s something my daily run which can never be replaced.

Cheers,

Paul Menon

===================

Deggie comments on the last letter:

PM>With respect to exertion, a runner … can hold a much higher heart rate than a swimmer …

D>This person obviously lacks a sufficiently healthy dose of breaststroke in his practices.

PM> … Probably due to running’s inefficiencies (jarring, balancing, fighting gravity), and (just to be contrary) being a natural progression from walking,…

Yes, running’s so tremendously inefficient (sarcasm), after all, water’s only ~800 times denser than air. No great resistance or anything.

PM>People can be “sedentary” swimmers more easily than they can be sedentary runners.

If you’re sedentary, get out of my lane. Or get fins like a walrus and a whale (see the apples and oranges comparison above.

PM>This is also why there can be really heavy and good cyclists.

One last logic error. You can’t compare people in good enough condition to run a full marathon and be considered good at it with people you may consider good swimmers who are heavy. I’ve never seen a swimmer who’s competing on a comparable level who’s got high body fat. I’ve seen them heavy-set if you’re talking about simply muscular, but the body fat just isn’t there.

————-

Another ‘thread’ now

Shoulder Tendonitis

… my wife gets tendonitis in her shoulder .. now she is swimming and it is back … she could hardly lift her arm

Any suggestions?

Mike Vanderkwaak

Canada V5A 4B5

———————–

STOP SWIMMING!!!!! REST THAT SHOULDER!!!!!

If you cannot lift the arm or if you feel excrutiating pain, you have done serious harm to the tendons. They will not heal without some rest. To continue risks injuring the shoulder so badly you will never be able to swim or use it.

Once the pain has subsides (and the generalized weakness has gone), slowly begin to strengthen the shoulder. A physio can tell you how to do this. If the problem comes back repeatedly despite strengthening, you may have to look into surgery to increase the space in the shoulder for the shoulder tendons to move. I had to have this done for both shoulder a while back -

Geoff Selig, Concordia University, Montreal, Quebec

———————————–

Patient: Doctor, it hurts when I do this.

Doctor : Stop doing it.

Jobst Schmalenbach

Caulfield, Australia,

——————————–

Rich Davis writes:

… typically the problem is muscle imbalance. Swimming strengthens the muscles and tendons on the front of the body and shoulders but does very little for the muscles in the back and neck. Most likely, a physical terrorist will give you exercises to do to strengthen the weak muscles. DO THEM RELIGIOUSLY AND FOREVER, or you will continue to struggle through shoulder problems. Substituting the appropriate weight training exercises for 1-2 swim workouts a week may be all that is necessary. I’ve cut back to 3-4 swim workouts a week with 2 upper body workouts and found that I’m much faster and stronger than ever before. And I’ve had no recurrance of a nasty case of shoulder tendonitis that plagued me for the better part of 12 years. Going on 6 years problem-free and still setting PR’s.

Anyway, the point is that tendon problems usually crop up when one trains only half the muscles. Muscle imbalance is responsible for nearly all shoulder, knee, etc. problems.

—

Suzanne Roat

Richmond, CA

> I recognized that fact with my tendonitis and have not been swimming in order to rest my shoulder. But it’s been two and a half weeks and there is no improvement. I’m getting a little worried to tell you the truth.

-K.P.

———————-

I’m sorry to tell you from my experience that things don’t look too bright. I had shoulder problems through my college career, and my shoulders continue to pop and crack and I sometimes get a dull pain. Of course I’ve only been out of swimming for three months now

My coach, however, says he still experiences that, and he’s been out of competitive swimming for at least 11 years.

I had some real problems after my sophomore year. All summer I stayed away from swimming, did my rehab exercises with the giant rubber band, and biked and ran to stay in shape. My shoulder did improve, but I had to be cautious and ice it constantly. Hope you have better luck!

Phil

—————————

Mine didn’t disappear in almost a month of conservative treatment either.

It needed a cortosone shot. WARNING such shots should not be repeated more often than once every five years. No, I don’t know what you’re supposed to do if you get tendonitis again within those five years.

-dk

New experimental water polo rules

I went to USA vs Russia Water Polo match … they tried some new experimental rule changes that will be decided on this August after ‘field testing’.

Features:

1 all field shots inside of an 8 meter cone were worth 2 points

2 all field shots outside of 8 meter cone were worth 3 points

3 4 meter shots were one and one (like bball free throws)

4 kickouts seemed to be called same way, but kicked out player only stayed out the amount of time it took to swim to the ‘penalty corner’, then he or a sub could return immediately.

5 Three majors and your out (kickout or 4 meter) 6 If you get a major outside the 8 meter ‘line’ you could shoot the ball, don’t need to pass first.

Dante announced the game, and tended to make light of the rules and have fun with it, over-playing the confusing aspects of it. He could have sold it to the fans a bit better instead of adding to the ‘black-box’ effect water polo rules have for the average fan.

My first impression was that I liked it a lot. There seemed to be differing strategies available and more reward to a player who could create a shot for himself, rather than the endless attempts to get a man-up situation. Yes, there was tons of confusion, sloppy play, which I would expect. There also seemed to be better options on counters. A deep release would tend to look for a shot more right away, as well as looking for the other breakers.

I have no idea what the players thought.

Mike

The spectators that normally watch water polo now are those that have played and grew up with it. I don’t think any “new” or “unfamiliars” will join in the stands for this sport. Personally, I don’t like the rules. It’s like playing a sport for 10 years then having them totally refurbish the rules.

Just a similar example. Imagine if in hockey they changing scoring like that. 1 point from 4m, 2 points 8m, 3 points from the blue line. Would that make hockey any more exciting?? I don’t think it would……>3 4 meter shots were one and one (like b’ball free throws)

Is it really the case that if one misses the first shot, one forfeits the second shot, or is it just “2 shots”? Either way, this sounds like more fun from my point of view (goalie).

>4 kickouts seemed to be called same way, but kicked out player only stayed out the amount of time it took to swim to the ‘penalty corner’, then he or a sub could return immediately.

I assume one has to swim to the corner on the right of the goal no matter which side one is on when kicked out–this seems a bit odd, but then again most kickouts happen in front of the goal anyway. I can’t say I care for this rule, but it’ll be easier for the timekeepers…

>5 Three majors and your out (kickout or 4 meter)

I don’t get this one–how does it differ from the old rule?

>6 If you get a major outside the 8 meter ‘line’ you could shoot the ball, don’t need to pass first.

This sounds like a good rule.

Brian Hunt

Is this 3 MAJORS or 3 KICKOUTS? Doesn’t a major constitute reason to eject someone from the game? Are you saying a player can clock people square in the face 3 times without getting kicked out??

This wasn’t an old rule. I kinda do and don’t like this. I remeber playing under these rules about 8 or 9 years ago. You were really screwed if you were guarding the hole. It does make the game a bit better though.

That was where you had 3 consecutive minor fouls on same player, it was a kickout. You had to do a lot of defensive switching on the hole player. In the 60′s if you got some number of fouls, you were out of the game (like Bball). That’s how I understand new rule,

3 major (kickout or 4 meter) fouls and you’re out of the game.

>>>6 If you get a major outside the 8 meter ‘line’ you could shoot

the ball, don’t need to pass first.

If a goalie misses a shot outside the 8 meter line, he deserved to get three point against him.

From what I saw of the game, us goalies are going to be much more ‘deserving’ with new rules. The shots after the fouls outside 8 meters are particularly dangerous, as the defender is supposed to give fouled player some space (or a kickout foul – I forgot to mention this rule).

Goalies are going to look worse. Like you say, we are supposed to stop those shots outside 8 meters, that’s our job, but there are going to be a lot more coming at us, and I bet we see more knucklers and sinkers than coaches used to let the hotshots get away with. The job on man-up situations will be different, the shot will come much sooner, not working you from side to side as before. Think about it, though, a goalie was sort of expected not to make the stop on man-up situations, he was a hero if he did. That’s been de-emphasized a bit. We have more opportunities to look foolish, and less opportunity to look good now….

Mike

Finger separation

What is the best way to position the fingers of your hand when pulling through the water? Should your hand be cupped with your thumb tight up against your lower forefinger and all fingers pressed side by side? Or should you let your hand open a bit to get a larger surface area? I used to think that the water running through your fingers

makes this less efficient. But now, I’m not sure that a little separation is a bad thing. Anyone?

——————-

Scott J. Kirner

In my experience, telling any swimmer to ‘cup’ their hands is a bad idea. This usually has the effect of having that person overdo it, resulting in something closer to a hemisphere.

My advice is to keep the curvature of your hands in their natural, relaxed position. Try holding your hands, relaxed, with the palms up. Unless I’m some sort of a mutant, my fingers act like most people’s in that they tend to angle upwards at an eyball angle of about 10 degrees from my palm. Any curvature in your hand should be no greater than (and probably less than) that.

I’d also recommend keeping your fingers together. Some books like _Swimming Faster_ have noted that some swimmers have a small index finger-middle finger seperation, which, according to the theory of lift-based swimming strokes, would act much as a leading-edge slat on an airplane wing. However, these folks are also Olympic-level swimmers, who need that extra thousandth of a second in their swimming times.

For people like us, it’s best to concentrate on stroke mechanics and body positioning, while keeping our hands and fingers as good mimics of paddles.

-tim

====================

Here’s where I disagree. If you tell people to keep their fingers together they get very stiff hands, and this translates up into the rest of their arm movements, and the recovery is no longer relaxed. Best off to let them do what comes naturally. You should be using your whole forearm and your hands in swimming, a good drill to check if you are using

your arms in addition to your hands is to swim with fists. If you go a lot slower then you need to think about the force of the water on your forearms, and using them for propulsion also.

Julie Paque

====================

When I was an age-group swimmer back in the fifties, I swam with my fingers open. Matt Mann (1952 Olympic coach whose summer camp I attended) used to yell at me to close my fingers. Then Doc Counsilman published a study in which he found that you actually get slightly more propulsion with the fingers open. In addition to the water pushed which is behind the fingers, water adjacent to the fingers is also pulled along. The effect isn’t great, but there’s certainly no valid reason to try to get a swimmer to pull the fingers together. Further, as noted by someone else above, tensing the fingers will tend to tense the rest of the arm, which isn’t very good for the stroke.

- – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – -

Steve Goldfield

University of California at Berkeley

—————————–

I was browsing through Doc Counsilman’s book on swimming a while back, and he did some experiments on just this topic. If I recall correcty, he did some “water tunnel” experiments with plaster casts of hands in three different positions–cupped, flat with fingers together, and flat with fingers spread. (He probably did some experiments with live swimmers too, but it’s been a while since I read it.)

He found that the flat position with the fingers together was the best. Flat with fingers apart was slightly worse, and cupped was a distant third. The explanation he gave was a hydrodynamic argument–he suggested that when you pull your hand through the water, the “drag” on the back of the hand is just as important (if not more so) than the “push” on the water with the palm. In the cupped position, this drag is greatly reduced.

An easy way to test this out for yourself is to just sit on the edge of the pool and sweep your hands through the water, trying each of the different positions. See which one gives the most resistance–and if it isn’t flat/fingers together then we can go back and revoke all those NCAA titles that Counsilman coached his team to.

P.S. Of course, as someone else pointed out, trying to hold your fingers together can lead to stiff hands. Probably best to do what feels right, so long as you aren’t cupping your hands.

–

Yggy King

——————————-

The Faulty Flipper is produced and published by David Swarbrick for the swimmers of BOK Masters squad.. BOK nor Kirklees MC have aught to do with it and ain’t responsible. It is not an attempt at great literature, and doesn’t even scale the foothills of journalism. If you see a mistake, and point it out, you will be asked, not necessarily in a polite manner if you wish to write the next issue. All contributions will be welcomed,and mercilessly edited before publication.

David Swarbrick, 10 Halifax Road Brighouse HD6 1RW Tel 0484 717380

http://www.faultyflipper.freeuk.com/ff36.html

Created: 22 October 2001

Updates: 2 Nov 2001

BOK Masters’ Newsletter August 1993 – No 36 Training Times
This section has now been re-written three times, because it gets out of date as I get slower in producing the Flipper. So, as at 4 August, training times are as follows. Next Week, we have Monday and Tuesday at 8:00pm, and on Wednesday we return to ‘normal..
Friday mornings.
Gary Thewlis had been running a Friday morning early swim at Salendine Nook. For all those who were considering going, he tells me the pool is closed for the summer, and the morning swims have been abandoned. Whether or not they will return will no doubt be up to Gary. I will keep you posted.
Pain in The Neck
I am sure that I read somewhere recently that in order to enforce the avoidance of diving accidents, at all future ASA recognised swimming meets each swimmer will have to have obtained the ASA’s certificate in competency in diving. If not, the coach of any team will be asked to sign something to say that each of his or her swimmers is competent to make the dive. The article suggested that unless such confirmation was forthcoming, the swimmers might be required to start the race from in the water.
This humiliation is to be avoided.
For any meet (NE Counties? Nationals?) we should know whether and how the organisers are to implement the ruling.
Are any steps being taken to provide us with the opportunity to take the certificate (not that I want to do so)?
Is Jim OK and happy to sign any certificate required, and if not is Martin Mosey prepared to sign such a certificate?
Do any swimmers in the squad feel that they need specific training in dives and safety? If so, who, and how is it to be provided. May I suggest very strongly that any swimmer who feels any lack of confidence about diving should speak out loud and clear (even if in private) to ensure that the situation is remedied.
European Championships
BOK swimmer Debbie Armitage swam a splendid second leg in the ladies’ 4x200m freestyle relay. The team took a bronze in a new British Record. This was the first ever medal success in this particular event for a GB team, and Debbie is much to be congratulated. She maintained the team’s position in her leg, and even improved it slightly. I do not know the time but it cannot have been far from her PB. Martin Mosey even got a mention on the commentary as Debbie’s coach.
Karoly Guttler won the 100m Breastroke on the first day of the swimming competition. Now out of the shadow of Norbert Rosza (who has gone off to Australia and applied to be naturalised there), Karoly smashed the previous record by .34s to be the first under 1.01s ever. Not content with that, swim in the heats, he posted the second fastest ever swim in the final, leaving Nick Gillingham trailing in his wake in silver medal position.
Other good swims on the first swimming day were Paul Palmer who complained loudly having finished fourth in the men’s 200m Free race. He set a new British Record in doing so, but obviously has uppity ambitions.
Worthy of mention are the synchronised swimmers. Kerry Shacklock twice crept into bronze medal position, in the pairs and individual competions to improve substantially on our record in this event. My daughter Merry was far more impressed with the synchronised swimmers than she has been with the ‘serious’ swimming. What was it they used to say to Jim in the navy – ‘Shake a leg’?
Swimming Wednesday 4 August
I do not yet have the full results, but here is the major part as far as I could get it.
Bob Morgan our diver now based at Ponds Forge got a spectacular silver medal in the men’s 10m platform event. He took the lead on the penultimate round only to lose it on the last dive after a good dive to the Russsian Sautin. The eventual margin was the equivalent of less than half an inch after a fifteen hundred meter race.
In the Ladies 200m breaststroke Marie Hardiman got a bronze in her second English record in this event, having broken the old one in the morning. In doing so, on this her first appearance representing her country she also knocked .7s off her own PB
The third medal for GB for the day came when Karen Pickering picked it up in the Ladies 200m freestyle (won by K van Almsyk again in 1m 57.97s)
Tomas Darnyi took the 400m IM in a race which was possibly closer than he expected. His previous unchallenged dominance of this event may be coming to an end.
The mens 4x200m Free style race was won by the Russians. The Swedish team marred a great performance by a faulty takeover. The Olympic Champion Holmertz seemed to fail to plant his hand on the wall, but by that time his follower had already committed and gone. But for the DQ the Swedish team would taken a hard earned second place.
Bondage in Black
Arena have come back against Speedo in the speedy swimsuit competition. The German ladies team at the European Championships have been sporting the new suit. It has several interesting characteristics. First, it has to be in black, because in any other colour it would be, shall we say, too revealing. Unlike the Speedo suit, it is only made for the ladies, but in any event there is not much evidence of men taking up the Speedo version (volunteers anyone?)
Next, it is extra specially tight, leaving not a breath of air next to the skin. This might make it admirable for the bondage freaks among us (I am sure there must be something odd about those who like wearing extra tight paddles + flippers + brain squeezing goggles + swimming cap)
Last it can only be put on over the head, fastening underneath the cr.. er between the legs. I am sure that the interesting sight of such a suit being put on or taken off will be denied to us poor chaps, but if any of the ladies wish to describe the contortions involved, please let us know.
The suit is not yet publicly available; it is expected to come out in late autumn at a price of just under eighty pounds (ERM allowing)
Oh, and I almost forgot, it is supposed to make you swim faster.
Poor Norbert
Going back to Norbert again, news has come in that he was recently disqualified in a local meet in Australia. His English not being as good as his swimming, he failed to understand that the meet was being organised with the next race starting ‘over the head’ of the previous one, and he climbed out too quickly. How are the mighty fallen.
We should take note, because this style of race may be the only satisfactory way of managing a very busy meet (such as the Nationals) Whilst it stops the judges falling asleep, keeping them very busy, it also does make a substantial difference (I am told) to the time taken to run a many heated event (300+ in the fifty free last year at Ponds forge)
NB I now understand that he climbed out, and was given the opportunity to climb back in again, but refused and was only then disqualified.
Mondays
In case you hadn’t noticed, the ‘base’ start time for Monday night sessions is now 8:30pm, not 8:45pm. I know Jim got upset with people not turning up, but it seems clear that many of us were not aware that this had changed.
If you will not be able to make the changed time, it might be sensible and polite to let Jim know.
Coaching
As everyone knows, the first and pre-eminent requirement for a coach is the ability to enjoy his own voice. He must maintain that certainty that others are equally enthralled and enraptured, listening with bated breath for the next pearl to be cast before the mere swine of the lower lanes, despite whatever anyone watching would consider ample and objective evidence to the contrary. Yes the coach’s true task is to talk to himself loudly and continuously, completely oblivious to the fact that no-one is listening.
Well, that is how it used to be. Now sadly, and somewhat frighteningly, Jim has got philosophy. He stands there on the side, distant and clearly thinking hard (or is that just steam from the showers). At the end of a set, instead of our usual 3 minute bo**ocking for absolutely nothing at all, Jim immediately gives out our next set.
Hardly has the sweat disappeared from the brow, the gasp turned to pant, before we are off with some new mountain to climb.
May I just, on behalf of all us down trodden swimmers say once and for all ‘We need a rest’ If that means we have to listen to more of Jim’s moans, and even perhaps the occasional joke, then I, for one, am prepared to make that great sacrifice.
New swimmers.We have several new swimmers with us, and I hope they will not be offended by my giving them a mention.
First we have Anthea. Anthea is 22 and over here from Germany, working for a local company for a few months. She is rapidly becoming adjusted to Jim’s style of training, and is young enough, and should be fast enough to climb toward the second lane before long.
Botty, who himself seems to be just visiting again for his summer hols, has been overheard gleefully and closely explaining the meaning of some of our more fruity English expressions (‘What does Jim mean when he calls John a Great Big W’). Quite how he has managed this I am not sure, but what I am awaiting is his own explanation of the term ‘Botty’ (with appropriate gestures or without)
Another swimmer is Rob Schofield (forgive me if I have the name wrong) Rob is another younger swimmer, but this time one with plenty of oomph. After being out of training for some time, he has slotted back into a routine very quickly and regularly leads off in the higher lanes. when it comes to the crunch, it will be a very close thing between him, Simon Andy and David in the 120+ relay team. Unusually for a good swimmer he appears not to have any gross personality defects; his single myopism being an unwilliingness to swim clockwise in a lane (is this ‘not turning the other cheek?)
Also back with us is Harry (‘the Wheel’) Barrow. Harry was one of the original BOK Masters swimmers. If you go to the pub ever on a Tuesday, you will often hear Jim reminisce He left in a spot of dudgeon shortly after I started, but has returned triumphant and resplendent from the sad depths of the length swimmers. Harry will be our oldest swimmer (by some distance) and will be far away from being the slowest.
Until this issue of the Flipper, I think he was unaware of the nickname he acquired after he left. It is a reference shall we say to his well known determination and single mindedness. He puts his head down, and woe betide anyone who assumes he will unnecessarily give way.
Harry is a well known triathlete and also a marathon swimmer. I am sure he has a very good chance of getting us a medal in the 1500m at the Nationals, as long as he doesn’t go dizzy with all the turns.
We have two new swimmers who have not quite decided whether they are swimming for Bradford or BOK, but since I do not know their names, I can’t say much more.
I am sure we have lost one or two swimmers along the way, but they are always much harder to notice by their absence. One exception is Alison Bees. Alison has presumably gone off back to Birmingham now that her course has finished. I do not know if we will see her again.
Trish Mellor definitely denies that her absence is permanent. I will be back, she says
Swimmers watch You might by now have realised that I am a sucker for anything small and dinky, bright and shiny, with lots of electronics and buttons. Yes, my son has once again knicked my trendy electronic pulse-thingy watch, and I am on the prowl for a new one.
Casio, the favourite watch makers for the chronometrically challenged, have brought out a delightful new beast – a swimmer’s watch!
The watch retails at over £60.00 (but should be available elsewhere cheaper – if you see it significantly less than 60.00 please let me know) is certainly not streamlined. It is the rather bulky sports type associated with motor sports – it looks like a little rubber tyre with yellow knobs on secured to the wrist by an imposingly thick black strap.
Though thoroughly electronic, the main clock face is analogue (its has hands, you remember a big one for the minutes and a little one for the hours, or was that ….. never mind). It has a fair selection of impressive digital displays as well.
The specific facilities for swimmers have been gathered by a very brief examination of the manual accompanying the watch in the shop. This is a best guess, and some inaccuracy is guaranteed. First it has the ability to store your own PBs. For each one it store’s the stroke, distance and time. There are no sophistications such as distinctions between long and short course or either for yards / metres. You can store up to 20 such records, and check through them and update them as necessary.
More interestingly it stores times for sets. You can set a repeat alarm to go off every so many seconds and then for the last five seconds it will beep and blink and flash mercilessly at you telling you that you have to get going. This seems to be as well done as I have seen it on a watch. Others start bleeping on the time, not before, and the visual indication on this watch consists of five small holes which go black in sequence; you should be always able to see it, unless your goggles have filled with water.
On the other hand resetting it to start another of Jim’s sessions in the time available, and while treading water (or with one hand), and without anything small and sharp to prod it, doesn’t sound immensely practical. One can well imagine Jim saying five hundreds on 90s, setting it rapidly (and surreptitiously fully maintaining the nonchalance usually associated with the accomplished swimmer) only to curse as, worn out by the apparently random combination of smiles grimaces and groans from Noreen, Louise and Wendy, he says ‘OK, 1m 45s, GO’ There would be a rapid deterioration in ones popularity if one were to beep inappropriately.
Just as an aside, I always love 11:00 in the Magistrates Court. The bench is just winding themselves up solemnly to send some poor unfortunate to suffer the advanced tea and sympathy of the probation service when ‘beep beep beep beep’. Off goes someone’s watch. All the solicitors try to look unconcerned as their hands move to stop the chime. It is very similar to what used to happen at school when someone let off a silent fart (that word failed to raise any excitement either in my thesaurus, which deigned never to have heard of it, nor from the spell checker which treated it with equal disdain). This time there is the added piquancy that no-one can be quite sure it isn’t them causing the social crisis.
Back to the watch ….
There is another facility to store times, which I didn’t quite catch (the young lady at the shop was by now gently drumming her highly polished very long and very sharp finger nails on the glass) Whatever it was, For each one you use you lose one of the memories for the records (see above)
It is easy (and right) to laugh at such things, but in the past I have found such mechanical aids quite useful. First, when you catch them on the rope, and the strap breaks, it may be useful; to have to duck down under the water and miss out the occasional 100 free. More seriously, when I have swum marathon races, by setting the thing to beep at the time I expected to ‘cycle’ each hundred on, I was able to gauge how fast I was going and properly pace myself, by listening for the beep every 100 metres. How the other swimmers got on with this beeping all the time, I do not know, and the results might be slightly confusing if everyone tried to do it. Anyway, it worked for me.
So, if by late summer (after my birthday) you see me sporting something that looks like a very pregnant overgrown Colorado beetle on my wrist, you will know two things. My wife reads the Flipper, and that she can take even the subtlest of hints.
Wendy, the TruthTruth has a strange quality: when you come across it, It seems to shine out like a torch on a Duracell advert. Well another, relatively tiny, but not unimportant, piece of the great puzzle of life fell into place recently.
Wendy, as you know is one of our more glorious and stylish backstrokers. Anyone who is not a backstroker will share my own acute puzzlement at how anyone can actually get to like back stroke enough to become a specialist. I know that some are born to it by virtue of the their physiology (being able to scratch their knees without bending), and others by virtue of a peculiar perversity of mind characterised by a determination to maintain cheerfulness at all times and wishing to be always ready to whistle.
Wendy suffers neither of these defects. So how did all this come about? Once every two months or so, we are asked to climb out of the pool to practice racing dives. Here is the answer. Wendy is unable to climb out over the side. By describing herself as a specialist back stroker, she therefore feels excused from climbing out.
The lengths some people will go to!
CalendarAugustMake sure you are registered with the ASA before mid August. If you are not, there is a chance you will be excluded from the competition by the ASA. If you do not know if you are registered, you aren’t. Ask Noreen for a form, and get it sent in.
28 Closing date for entries for North East counties.
Sat 28 August Liverpool – First open water 24 hour relay challenge – swim round in circles in the Albert Dock – 6 per relay team continuous one hour swims (398m circuits) This is yet another form of torture for the innocent. If your mind is of the nature to be pleased by this, please keep it to yourself. Go in silence, return in triumph
September9 – 12 European Championships at Sindelfingen near Stuttgart Germany. If you are thinking about entering this event, you will have to obtain ‘authority’ from the ASA.
18/19 North East Counties at Scarborough. Do not panic, the forms are on their way.
October15, 16, 17 National Championships at Ponds Forge. Here we go again. This time a few more medals please. I have heard rumours that this year we will be visited by the great and almighty Adrian Moorehouse. Help!
NovemberHull – date to be confirmed.
DecemberMilton Keynes – date to be confirmed1994January16 Closing date for Sunderland.
February19 Sunderland. This is the first meet of the year, and the best chance to find out how much of the Xmas pud is gone.
April 29, 30 May 1stMidland District Masters at Leamington Spa. I can obtain details for anyone interested. All distances up to 400m including also an open section.May14/15 Yorkshire ASA Championships at Scarborough(The calendar is being re-born patience please)
Internet talkThe following discussions are taken, entirely without permission from discussions within the USENET discussion group rec sports swimming. If I thought the authors might mind I would not republish them, but I don’t so I will. I try to acknowledge the authors names, but anyone who has seen these groups will see that identifying who said what is not always easy.
Caroline Lambert writes:>I … read (an) article (which) stated that it was harder for swimmers to lose weight because the water temperature made the body more disposed to retain fat cells. This seems to make sense if you look at the body types of world class swimmers vs. world class runners. I’m not saying the swimmers are … fat, but the runners seem to have a lot lower body fat content. Opinions?
One reply:I doubt that many competitive swimmers have more than 3 or 4% body fat. [ed - this chap obviously has not seen our squad]
Doc Counsilman in his book mentioned a class of swimmers that were so lean that they had to maintain a certain forward speed to avoid sinking to the pool bottom.
I’m inclined to believe that any difference between swimming and running concerning weight loss can be best explained by the relative difference in strength of upper body muscles and lower body muscles. Even overweight, out-of-shape people have fairly strong lower body muscles, primarily because they still have walk and carry their weight. This strength serves them well when starting a running program and helps them persist and progress.
But out-of-shape people rarely have strong upper bodies and unlike running swimming demands a lot from the upper body. 65% to 90% of the forward motion of swimming comes from the pull, depending on the stroke and skill of the swimmer. You simply can’t progress in swimming without increasing upper body strength. For people starting a swimming program this is quite a hurdle and can be compounded by a lack of skill or coaching. Only the determined beginner will progress to a strength and stamina level necessary to burn many calories.
Another reply:There are so many factors in this debate that it really comes down to a person’s characteristics.
- how efficient are your biomechanics in each sport. I swim very efficiently, but do not run very efficiently. Less efficient you are, the more energy you burn
- what do you do after you swim/run. I always feel like I will perish any moment from hunger after a good swimming workout and tend to eat LOTS afterwards. Running, on the other hand tends to depress my appetite till the next morning. Since your metabolism remains high for 2-4 hours after exercise, it makes a difference when you eat
- Both swimming and running can cause calories to be burnt just keeping you comfortable with your climate. This all depends on your natural body fat level. If you’re really lean, swimming will proabably burn more calories.
- how often do you do it. The more often you do something, the more efficient those muscles become at doing it. I spend more time in my running shoes than in the pool, so my body works harder in the pool.
Brendan R. Leitch ================= Paul Big Ears Menon of the Royal Melbourne Institute of Technology
Just another angle to consider: running is a weight-bearing sport and swimming is not. Therefore extra fat on a runner penalizes the runner much more than extra fat on a swimmer.
A little data from a runner who took up swimming last year:
I could barely swim 1 lap last year. Now I get bored after 75. I _was_ skeletal above the waist – a typical rabbit (and still am compared to a typical swimmer). The first thing I noticed was the “firming” of my upper body, and eating more(!) as I am still running.
I can lose 3 Kg as a result of intensive runs (1 – 1.5 hrs, heart rate continuously around 170+), a lot more over marathons.
The most I have lost as a result of swims is ~ 1 Kg.
This isn’t fat, it’s fluid. I’ve long lost any excess flab, but as a comparison, I burn a lot more calories while running than swimming. I concur that even a 40 min gallop (1 1/4 Kg fluid loss) seems to be more effective than the hardest swim session I’ve done. I’m no Kieren Perkins in the pool, but when I do swim hard, it is hard, as I nudge my lactating point (legs & arms like lead and a “swimming” head.
I don’t think that one form of activity is “better” than another. I’d say that once a runner’s core temperature rises past a certain point, fluid loss (sweat) will always cause more weight loss than a swimming session. Swimmers are more effectively cooled by their environment, thus their core temp won’t rise that far (unless they’re in equatorial waters or wearing wet suits). Note that the quads are the largest(?) muscles in the body, and the runner exercises them more. Once they’re hot, they’re hot.
With respect to exertion, a runner (while running) can hold a much higher heart rate than a swimmer (while swimming) for a longer period of time. I think the order is swimming, running then cycling (a recent cycling jnl had this data). Cycling permits higher heart rates due to the efficiency of the exercise & the ability to concentrate most effort onto a very small group of muscles (I guess concentrating most of the blood/oyxgen into one area of the body is better). Swimming is probably lowest (in Max Heart Rate) due to the upper body being exercised too – ie, it isn’t every day you walk on your hands or do push ups, etc (it’s unusual). There’s also the very controlled breathing requirements (which can be subconscious during running and cycling). In essence, all but a very few can break through the warning signals sent to you when you’re overdoing it while swimming.
Swimming (when done properly) exercises the arms, legs, chest & shoulders (& even the abdomen). It is a more all round exerciser than the other two. Which is also probably why there’s the lower (aerobic) maximum heart rate. Oxygenated blood needs to go in just about every direction, rather than the dominant legs while cycling and running. So lactating occurs earlier due to the massive oxygen demand from all corners, not unlike XC skiing. If you really want a good weight loser, try that! There’s more demand from the legs and breathing is more natural (if gasping can be called breathing ).
Even though cycling permits a higher heart rate in general, I’ve observed that this doesn’t equate to a higher weight (fluid) loss. Probably due to running’s inefficiencies (jarring, balancing, fighting gravity), and (just to be contrary) being a natural progression from walking, I (for one) seem to be capable of greater fluid loss through this than any other form of exercise. People can be “sedentary” swimmers more easily than they can be sedentary runners. This is the gravity (weight) bit again which turns into the advantage of bouyancy while in the pool. Am I the only one who’s peeved that a walrus/whale has the potential to outswim me? This is also why there can be really heavy and good cyclists. But how many have seen a “heavy” 10K or marathon runner?
So yes, it’s possible to see a heavy-set (& good) swimmer or cyclist – not so a runner. I haven’t seen one.
This is from a reasonable runner & cyclist and a novice (and improving) swimmer. I don’t think my opinion will change even when I have developed my upper body to the stage of thrashing Perkins in the 1500 (around about 1995 if my improvement stays linear
Oh, this isn’t a sledge at swimming, I love to hate it twice a day! But there’s something my daily run which can never be replaced.
Cheers,
Paul Menon
===================Deggie comments on the last letter: PM>With respect to exertion, a runner … can hold a much higher heart rate than a swimmer …
D>This person obviously lacks a sufficiently healthy dose of breaststroke in his practices.
PM> … Probably due to running’s inefficiencies (jarring, balancing, fighting gravity), and (just to be contrary) being a natural progression from walking,…
Yes, running’s so tremendously inefficient (sarcasm), after all, water’s only ~800 times denser than air. No great resistance or anything.
PM>People can be “sedentary” swimmers more easily than they can be sedentary runners.
If you’re sedentary, get out of my lane. Or get fins like a walrus and a whale (see the apples and oranges comparison above.
PM>This is also why there can be really heavy and good cyclists.
One last logic error. You can’t compare people in good enough condition to run a full marathon and be considered good at it with people you may consider good swimmers who are heavy. I’ve never seen a swimmer who’s competing on a comparable level who’s got high body fat. I’ve seen them heavy-set if you’re talking about simply muscular, but the body fat just isn’t there.————-
Another ‘thread’ nowShoulder Tendonitis… my wife gets tendonitis in her shoulder .. now she is swimming and it is back … she could hardly lift her arm Any suggestions?
Mike VanderkwaakCanada V5A 4B5———————–STOP SWIMMING!!!!! REST THAT SHOULDER!!!!!
If you cannot lift the arm or if you feel excrutiating pain, you have done serious harm to the tendons. They will not heal without some rest. To continue risks injuring the shoulder so badly you will never be able to swim or use it.
Once the pain has subsides (and the generalized weakness has gone), slowly begin to strengthen the shoulder. A physio can tell you how to do this. If the problem comes back repeatedly despite strengthening, you may have to look into surgery to increase the space in the shoulder for the shoulder tendons to move. I had to have this done for both shoulder a while back -
Geoff Selig, Concordia University, Montreal, Quebec ———————————–Patient: Doctor, it hurts when I do this.Doctor : Stop doing it.
Jobst Schmalenbach Caulfield, Australia, ——————————–
Rich Davis writes: … typically the problem is muscle imbalance. Swimming strengthens the muscles and tendons on the front of the body and shoulders but does very little for the muscles in the back and neck. Most likely, a physical terrorist will give you exercises to do to strengthen the weak muscles. DO THEM RELIGIOUSLY AND FOREVER, or you will continue to struggle through shoulder problems. Substituting the appropriate weight training exercises for 1-2 swim workouts a week may be all that is necessary. I’ve cut back to 3-4 swim workouts a week with 2 upper body workouts and found that I’m much faster and stronger than ever before. And I’ve had no recurrance of a nasty case of shoulder tendonitis that plagued me for the better part of 12 years. Going on 6 years problem-free and still setting PR’s.
Anyway, the point is that tendon problems usually crop up when one trains only half the muscles. Muscle imbalance is responsible for nearly all shoulder, knee, etc. problems.
—Suzanne RoatRichmond, CA
> I recognized that fact with my tendonitis and have not been swimming in order to rest my shoulder. But it’s been two and a half weeks and there is no improvement. I’m getting a little worried to tell you the truth.-K.P.———————- I’m sorry to tell you from my experience that things don’t look too bright. I had shoulder problems through my college career, and my shoulders continue to pop and crack and I sometimes get a dull pain. Of course I’ve only been out of swimming for three months now My coach, however, says he still experiences that, and he’s been out of competitive swimming for at least 11 years.
I had some real problems after my sophomore year. All summer I stayed away from swimming, did my rehab exercises with the giant rubber band, and biked and ran to stay in shape. My shoulder did improve, but I had to be cautious and ice it constantly. Hope you have better luck!
Phil—————————Mine didn’t disappear in almost a month of conservative treatment either.
It needed a cortosone shot. WARNING such shots should not be repeated more often than once every five years. No, I don’t know what you’re supposed to do if you get tendonitis again within those five years.
-dk
New experimental water polo rulesI went to USA vs Russia Water Polo match … they tried some new experimental rule changes that will be decided on this August after ‘field testing’.
Features:1 all field shots inside of an 8 meter cone were worth 2 points2 all field shots outside of 8 meter cone were worth 3 points3 4 meter shots were one and one (like bball free throws)4 kickouts seemed to be called same way, but kicked out player only stayed out the amount of time it took to swim to the ‘penalty corner’, then he or a sub could return immediately.5 Three majors and your out (kickout or 4 meter) 6 If you get a major outside the 8 meter ‘line’ you could shoot the ball, don’t need to pass first.
Dante announced the game, and tended to make light of the rules and have fun with it, over-playing the confusing aspects of it. He could have sold it to the fans a bit better instead of adding to the ‘black-box’ effect water polo rules have for the average fan.
My first impression was that I liked it a lot. There seemed to be differing strategies available and more reward to a player who could create a shot for himself, rather than the endless attempts to get a man-up situation. Yes, there was tons of confusion, sloppy play, which I would expect. There also seemed to be better options on counters. A deep release would tend to look for a shot more right away, as well as looking for the other breakers.
I have no idea what the players thought.
Mike
The spectators that normally watch water polo now are those that have played and grew up with it. I don’t think any “new” or “unfamiliars” will join in the stands for this sport. Personally, I don’t like the rules. It’s like playing a sport for 10 years then having them totally refurbish the rules.
Just a similar example. Imagine if in hockey they changing scoring like that. 1 point from 4m, 2 points 8m, 3 points from the blue line. Would that make hockey any more exciting?? I don’t think it would……>3 4 meter shots were one and one (like b’ball free throws)
Is it really the case that if one misses the first shot, one forfeits the second shot, or is it just “2 shots”? Either way, this sounds like more fun from my point of view (goalie).
>4 kickouts seemed to be called same way, but kicked out player only stayed out the amount of time it took to swim to the ‘penalty corner’, then he or a sub could return immediately.
I assume one has to swim to the corner on the right of the goal no matter which side one is on when kicked out–this seems a bit odd, but then again most kickouts happen in front of the goal anyway. I can’t say I care for this rule, but it’ll be easier for the timekeepers…
>5 Three majors and your out (kickout or 4 meter)
I don’t get this one–how does it differ from the old rule?
>6 If you get a major outside the 8 meter ‘line’ you could shoot the ball, don’t need to pass first.
This sounds like a good rule.
Brian Hunt
MoreIs this 3 MAJORS or 3 KICKOUTS? Doesn’t a major constitute reason to eject someone from the game? Are you saying a player can clock people square in the face 3 times without getting kicked out??
This wasn’t an old rule. I kinda do and don’t like this. I remeber playing under these rules about 8 or 9 years ago. You were really screwed if you were guarding the hole. It does make the game a bit better though.
That was where you had 3 consecutive minor fouls on same player, it was a kickout. You had to do a lot of defensive switching on the hole player. In the 60′s if you got some number of fouls, you were out of the game (like Bball). That’s how I understand new rule,3 major (kickout or 4 meter) fouls and you’re out of the game.
>>>6 If you get a major outside the 8 meter ‘line’ you could shootthe ball, don’t need to pass first.
If a goalie misses a shot outside the 8 meter line, he deserved to get three point against him.
From what I saw of the game, us goalies are going to be much more ‘deserving’ with new rules. The shots after the fouls outside 8 meters are particularly dangerous, as the defender is supposed to give fouled player some space (or a kickout foul – I forgot to mention this rule).
Goalies are going to look worse. Like you say, we are supposed to stop those shots outside 8 meters, that’s our job, but there are going to be a lot more coming at us, and I bet we see more knucklers and sinkers than coaches used to let the hotshots get away with. The job on man-up situations will be different, the shot will come much sooner, not working you from side to side as before. Think about it, though, a goalie was sort of expected not to make the stop on man-up situations, he was a hero if he did. That’s been de-emphasized a bit. We have more opportunities to look foolish, and less opportunity to look good now….
Mike
Finger separationWhat is the best way to position the fingers of your hand when pulling through the water? Should your hand be cupped with your thumb tight up against your lower forefinger and all fingers pressed side by side? Or should you let your hand open a bit to get a larger surface area? I used to think that the water running through your fingersmakes this less efficient. But now, I’m not sure that a little separation is a bad thing. Anyone?——————-Scott J. Kirner In my experience, telling any swimmer to ‘cup’ their hands is a bad idea. This usually has the effect of having that person overdo it, resulting in something closer to a hemisphere.
My advice is to keep the curvature of your hands in their natural, relaxed position. Try holding your hands, relaxed, with the palms up. Unless I’m some sort of a mutant, my fingers act like most people’s in that they tend to angle upwards at an eyball angle of about 10 degrees from my palm. Any curvature in your hand should be no greater than (and probably less than) that.
I’d also recommend keeping your fingers together. Some books like _Swimming Faster_ have noted that some swimmers have a small index finger-middle finger seperation, which, according to the theory of lift-based swimming strokes, would act much as a leading-edge slat on an airplane wing. However, these folks are also Olympic-level swimmers, who need that extra thousandth of a second in their swimming times.
For people like us, it’s best to concentrate on stroke mechanics and body positioning, while keeping our hands and fingers as good mimics of paddles.
-tim====================Here’s where I disagree. If you tell people to keep their fingers together they get very stiff hands, and this translates up into the rest of their arm movements, and the recovery is no longer relaxed. Best off to let them do what comes naturally. You should be using your whole forearm and your hands in swimming, a good drill to check if you are using your arms in addition to your hands is to swim with fists. If you go a lot slower then you need to think about the force of the water on your forearms, and using them for propulsion also.
Julie Paque====================When I was an age-group swimmer back in the fifties, I swam with my fingers open. Matt Mann (1952 Olympic coach whose summer camp I attended) used to yell at me to close my fingers. Then Doc Counsilman published a study in which he found that you actually get slightly more propulsion with the fingers open. In addition to the water pushed which is behind the fingers, water adjacent to the fingers is also pulled along. The effect isn’t great, but there’s certainly no valid reason to try to get a swimmer to pull the fingers together. Further, as noted by someone else above, tensing the fingers will tend to tense the rest of the arm, which isn’t very good for the stroke.- – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – -Steve Goldfield University of California at Berkeley —————————–I was browsing through Doc Counsilman’s book on swimming a while back, and he did some experiments on just this topic. If I recall correcty, he did some “water tunnel” experiments with plaster casts of hands in three different positions–cupped, flat with fingers together, and flat with fingers spread. (He probably did some experiments with live swimmers too, but it’s been a while since I read it.)He found that the flat position with the fingers together was the best. Flat with fingers apart was slightly worse, and cupped was a distant third. The explanation he gave was a hydrodynamic argument–he suggested that when you pull your hand through the water, the “drag” on the back of the hand is just as important (if not more so) than the “push” on the water with the palm. In the cupped position, this drag is greatly reduced.
An easy way to test this out for yourself is to just sit on the edge of the pool and sweep your hands through the water, trying each of the different positions. See which one gives the most resistance–and if it isn’t flat/fingers together then we can go back and revoke all those NCAA titles that Counsilman coached his team to. P.S. Of course, as someone else pointed out, trying to hold your fingers together can lead to stiff hands. Probably best to do what feels right, so long as you aren’t cupping your hands.– Yggy King ——————————-

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